Turning Up

Please…this is not a license to play your Mesa Boogie octal rectifier (I’m assuming that’s the correct way to say ‘8 rectifiers, but I’m not sure…because it doesn’t exist…I was just trying to make a point via exaggeration……hmm…note to self…points made by exaggeration seem to become less poignant when you explain them in parentheses) up to its full 100 watts of tube power. No. Don’t. But there are times when a little more stage volume is necessary, not for tone (gasp!…there’s more important things than tone?!), but for the live feel of the band.

For instance, the other night at a church, where I can usually play at my amp’s full 30 watts, I switched down to 15, because the normal drummer was not playing. The new drummer was really, really good; just not as loud. Loudness does not equal skill, guys. No matter what Oz Fox says. (For those of you who don’t know, Oz Fox was one of the original Stryper guitarists. I saw him guest with Guardian one time…oh yes, I said Guardian…this was like 1998…and his guitar was so loud, my knees were literally buckling. Then he went over to the house speakers that were the giant, 12-foot JBL ones sitting on the stage, and…I am not making this up…turned them up. It was like, ‘My amps are already at 11. Where can I get more volume? Hey, look! A bigger amp!’ It was at that point that I decided to cover my ears. And I still heard every note he played.) But the regular drummer is really good, too; one of the best I’ve played with. He just pounds the very life out of those drums. 


This is Stryper. And I’m almost positive they’re all dudes. And you think, well, it was the ’80’s. Things have gotten better since then. Ya, maybe not so much. This is from their latest album in 2006:


Oh yes. They dumped the transvestite thing for…what is that? Naked men being born in honey-mustard? Maybe bad taste is just bad taste, no matter what decade you’re in. And someone please help the one on the bottom right, because I think he’s being choked by the umbilical cord. And in fairness, Stryper did do a lot for the Christian music of their generation, and a lot for the Lord. But to say there was no cheesiness involved…well, let’s just say that there absolutely was cheesiness involved. And if you don’t believe me, did you even look at the above pictures?

Anyway, so I’m down at my amp’s 15 watt setting during practice, and the volume on stage is fine. You can hear everybody, and everybody’s playing fine. But there’s a feel that’s missing. And I realize that the band is not being driven by anything. Now, if you asked them, they probably wouldn’t say something needs to be louder. But it’s a perception thing. You can tell when there’s just no energy. And sometimes, a little push can make all the difference. So I flipped back up to the 30 watt setting, but turned the master volume down some. And then I waitied until the song started to build, turned on my volume pedal, and built into the song’s crescendo at my now louder volume. And you could see the energy it gave. Everyone was now ‘feeling’ the music, and the song started to take off. The worship leader motioned for another chorus, the drummer started to hit his peak, the other guitarist wanted to break into a solo, and the bassist and keyboardist started pounding. And take note that I said the other guitarist wanted to break into a solo. This means that I was not solo-ing when I turned up. Getting your guitar feel to drive the band more doesn’t work if you start with a solo…it takes what you intended to be unselfish and for the band, and makes it sound like you’re being ego-ish. (I think the correct word is probably egotistical…definitely don’t feel like deleting it, though.) You gotta do this with rhythm.

Now, it didn’t have to be me. It could have been any of the instruments coaxing the others to crescendo. It just happened that I noticed it first. And please, please, please (for the love of everything you hold dear, please note this), note that I did not turn up much. Just enough to where the stage volume of my guitar could drive the band a bit more. But the sound tech probably did not even notice. It’s a subtle change, but one that needs to happen sometimes. There are points sometimes when you have to stop worrying about what you’re playing, what your tone sounds like, wondering if maybe by some slight chance Edge is going to show up to church tonight and what he’ll think of your delay tones (admittedly that’s probably just me…but unfortunately, it is not made up), and listen to what the band needs from your feel. Not from your sound, but from your feel. And then, if the feel is lacking, you just might have to turn up a little.

And you’ll know if you’ve turned up too much. Ya. From every other person in the band, including the sound tech (he’s probably the most important person in the band). The nice ones will just kind of back off on their instrument and then wait until the song is over to say something kind and non-committal like, ‘Did it sound to everyone else like the monitor mix just went down? I’m having trouble hearing.’ The not so gentle ones (usually the background vocalists…just a quick side note…do not make them angry!! And I mean that in the best possible way, background vocalists. I love you, but I really do not want you to be angry with me) will say something like, ‘What’s that horrible  screeching sound coming from somewhere on the right side of the stage, right where that guitar amp is?’

Yep. You’ll know. So try to find that place where your sound is quiet enough to not overpower the mix, but loud enough to drive some good feel out of the band. And Stryper is funny.


0 thoughts on “Turning Up

  1. Splendid… oh wait, that’s your word. (this has nothing to do with your post but I’m writing it anyway). I believe that the stage noise (or mix whatever you want to call it) is as important if not more important than the house mix. Without a good stage mix, the band looses energy.

    One thing we struggle with is that we’re in a small room with a wide range of people… and that includes old people. That means that our house volume is constantly being turned down because we’re “too loud”. We’re also constantly being told that the drums are “too loud”. The reality is that while we have a lot of sound techs, there are only a couple that actually understand “feel”. So while others are saying it’s too loud, the reality is that the mix is out of balance. I see it every once in a while (when certain sound techs are mixing). We’ve got the drums behind a shield, the drummers playing as softly as he can while using “hot-rods” and the tech has the kit turned way down. The audience has this confused look on their faces. They’re hesitant about clapping and eventually end up falling behind or even clapping on the 1 & the 3… They can’t hear the snare! If we have a solid stage mix though, this doesn’t usually happen.

    My theory is that you don’t even really need a P.A. (in our room) for anything other than vocals if your capable of getting a good stage mix. I think we depend on sound guys and monitor mixes way too much. Either way, I think it all starts with a good stage mix.

    If only sound techs understood feel, this would be a much better world! 😉

  2. Quote of the day from that site… “Excessive sound amplification restricts natural expression and reduces audience enjoyment.” The best part is that he’s talking to sound techs!!! In other words, he’s saying let the stinkin’ musicians crank their amps!

  3. master volume? i wish my carvin had one, I’ve been trying to get different people to mod it for some time. Sad.

    We too have a very loud drummer. When he gets quiet, everything slows down. He also enjoys his cymbals. But he brings the energy youre talking about, so I just wear an earplug in my left ear. We usually don’t have anyone to do sound but myself, so I’m always guessing at the mix on stage, and running back and forth from the mixer. Its uber-awesome. 🙁

  4. Heh, I did something similiar to a song we did last week. “Amazed” by Desperation Band….

    We wanted to build the bridge– 1st: soft, keys and ambient guitar, to light bass and acoustic single strums, 2nd: to acoustic rhythm and bass scalings, 3rd: a crescendo into a key change to go back to the chorus.

    We couldn’t figure out what was missing…. they all loved my part (i’m bragging here, it sounded awesome! Possibly the best impromptu lick I’ve pulled off) of a volume swell into a muff into a looooong delay for a sweet violin riff.
    So it hit me— The muff can get pretty nasty sounding when its loud. So i turned up the ‘sustain’ (the dirt) and then turned my guitar volume down to almost half. So I could do my normal swells and it still sounds fine. THEN when we hit that crescendo, I swell with my guitar’s volume knob too and hit the key change- added volume on the swell, added drive, added dirt—–
    and honestly, for one of the first times in my life the whole band looked at me and smiled as our bass player started jumping around (face it, normally we do something cool and usually the bass or other guitar nods at you. IF you get the keyboard guy— you done good son)

    I will never forget that moment. And the fact I did it with a 40 dollar lil’ big muff. Guess that makes up for playing “How Great is Our God” almost a whole verse in C, when the rest of the band is in A. (yeah, our first song, they told me the wrong key)

  5. Karl, you consistently provide some good insights while remaining hilarious. you becoming a daily read for me. (As long as your posts are daily Ha!)

    Do you have video of your worship team in action? I’d love to see you in action.


  6. Eric–Killer comment! I totally agree. There is a feel that comes with soundwaves actually ‘moving air’, and so many times, just like you pointed out, we kill it; and then we wonder why we can’t get people to clap. On the other hand, we’ve accidentally had it so loud before, that I’ve asked people to stand while the band started the first song, and literally had the congregation mouth to me, ‘We can’t hear you.’ hehe 🙂 So I think getting to the point where you can have a good, balanced mix both in sound and feel, comes from having an autonomous relationship between sound techs and musicians, having musicians skilled enough and caring enough to understand sound in general, and also reading stuff like you posted! Wow! That was a great article! I remember when I was in Brilliant Absence, some of our best shows were the ones where the sound techs would only mic the vocals…because we knew how to set our amps and what levels to play at to give a good front of house mix without any exterior amplification. Uh, and it also comes from being able to play in a big place. hehe Our church is not that big, and whenever I get a chance to play in a really big place, it’s like…okay, this is what it should feel like. 😉

    Kenrick–ya, the master volume (if you have a good one), can be very useful. Have you tried Jerry Blaha in Hollywood or Tim Pinnell at Top Gear down in your neck of the woods? Those are the techs I use, and I bet both of them could do a fine job on a master volume mod.

    And bro, I’m right with ya. There are many a weekend where I have to be my own sound guy, too. haha

    Larry–good times. It’s nice to have our moments, especially after screwing up the other songs. haha So many times I’ve just clunked it so bad on a song, and then in the next song, I’m up there praying, ‘Please let me find the perfect melody, please let me find the perfect melody.’ haha

    And supposedly, the new Li’l Big Muff is closer to the original specs than the reissue. So it’s nice to hear a good review on it.

    Nate–thanks for the kind words, brother! And as far as a video of my worship team…well…it would definitely be less than stellar. I’ve spent a lot of time as a guitarist, but have just taken over the worship ministry at my church within the past year. So I’m still learning how to train up good sound techs consistently, how to be a sound tech myself (as I think all worship leaders and musicians should be, at some level), and how to get a good recorded mix on the equipment we have. Because my church (as I think most churches in the current country situation) has no budget. 🙂 But I’ll try to work on some video recordings that don’t distort when the drums come in! hehe

  7. Nooo! Getting in a war with the sound guy is not the way to go, they always win! The mains will always sound better than stage noise… amps are laser beam directional, drums will lack low end in the kick, and listening to wedges pointed down stage sounds muffled in the house. You’re talking about feeling awesome on stage but sounding bad in the house vs not feeling it on stage but sounding good in the house. These becomes less of an issue as the room gets bigger and you can have your cake and eat it too, but in small rooms is a big issue. If the congregation will only tolerate 90db and your stage volume is 89db, the sounds guy isn’t going to use the mains and it’s not going to sound good 🙁

    If hotrods played softly behind a shield is too loud for a good chuck of the congregation, it’s time to find a new style the congregation will enjoy worshiping with, IMO.

  8. I saw Stryper in all their 80’s glory play at a club here in Palo Alto back in 84(?) It was pretty wild. During one song they threw those miniature New Testament Bibles out at the crowd. The covers of the Bibles had yellow stripes. I wanted one so bad… no luck. I don’t remember the concert being that loud though. Of course, I was only 16 at the time…

  9. I think rocking in a small room is probably one of the biggest problems worship teams face. Hotrods, drum shields, and electric kits – ew, ew, ew. Definitely a hard balance, especially when you have a big age range in the congregation like you said. Karl… maybe a post just devoted to that?

  10. Mike and Eric–ya, as Eric said, there’s got to be balance. And I hear your point too, Mike, and agree with you that if we’re turning up for our enjoyment and at the expense of the live sound and hence, the congregation’s worship experience as a whole, then something’s wrong. But there’s also something wrong if you have the cleanest ever front of house mix, but the musicians can’t feel or hear things enough to add any emotion or passion into it. So what we’re essentially talking about is how to find the balance between a cranked stage for a muddy mix and between a silent stage for a sterile mix.

    I too, think that a war between the sound tech and the worship team is a bad thing. And, in my humble experience, it’s been both who lose. The sound tech will try to win by cranking the house and muting the monitors, and then the worship leader will get fed up and go work the board himself, and then the sound tech walks out the door, never to come back. Now the worship team is without, arguably, their most important member.

    I think (and again, it’s not like I have all the answers…ya, not even close) that the secret lies in having the sound tech as one of the worship team members, and having an extremely good relationship with them. And then having musicians who understand who to get good feel without being too loud. And thirdly, getting a good handle on ‘good’ stage volume. It’s not so much how loud or soft, it’s how good. For instance, I can take our church kick drum and make it sound better by mic’ing it through the house, and eq’ing it. But that’s bad. The sound system is for reinforcement. The tone should be better from the live rig than it is through the house. What I should do is take our church kick drum and buy a new one, with good wood, get a remo hydraulics head or whatever for it, and make its own sound be fantastic. Then let the system just reinforce that ‘fantastic’ sound. Now, that’s just my opinion, but in my limited experience, the acoustic sound of any instrument ‘should’ be better than the house. The house should simply be for reinforcement. I had a friend one time go to U2 concert and get to stand right up in the front by Edge’s rig. And he’d been to a couple of their shows before, but always in the back; and he had just attributed Edge’s tone to post production through the house. But he said, standing in front of Edge’s amps and hearing the stage volume, he was absolutely blown away by the tone coming straight from the amps.

    So, I guess you gotta sound good first, on stage. Then let the house simply ‘reinforce’ that. And then, at the same time, we’ve all heard the horrendous sounds coming from on stage, and been able to fix them somewhat with the eq. So there’s definitely two sides, and I’m no expert. Mike? Eric? I’d love to hear your guys’ expertise on this, or anyone else. Honestly, I was hoping the conversation on this post would take a turn here, because I’d love to learn from all your guys’ experiences. Especially you, Mike, as I love your tone setup, and you always seem to have great opinions; and especially you, Eric, as over the years, I’ve learned a ton from you and owe you a lot. Thanks for reading, posting, and sharing, guys! 🙂

    –And Guitar Toma (if you read this far, hehe)–that yellow and black striped Bibles might just be the best thing I’ve ever heard…well, besides the cordless drill…hehe And ya, nothing’s loud when you’re 16. 😉

  11. My wife admitted to me tonight that she saw Stryper with her youth group back in the day but she wasn’t into “heavy metal.” ha ha. In honor of Stryper, I need to remember to do some pinch harmonics if I get any solos the next time I play!

  12. I was going to comment, then it turned into it’s own blog post 🙂 I wrote about my philosophies on setting up a mix, essentially so you get a good feel but keep quiet!


    I totally agree with your comment that the acoustic instrument needs to sound great on it’s own and just use the sound system to reinforce what’s already there. Recording guys joke that the best way to record something is get a great instrument, have a great player play it, and put a mike in front. Often times people squabble about how to mike something or how to EQ it after it’s tracked… the best way is to have it sound good in the first place! With that said, bad sound guys can take good sounding pieces and mix them so they sound bad while great sound guys can take good sounding pieces and make them sound great. Sound guys should be as good at their job as the musicians are at theirs!

  13. Very nice post, brother! I love hearing your take on this stuff. And yes, sound techs should be skilled at their craft, and hopefully see that as their instrument of worship. We’re blessed at my church to have a few, not just one, gifted techs. Really a blessing. 🙂

    Again, great post.

  14. “Either way, I think it all starts with a good stage mix.”

    Did I just quote myself??? Weird! This is what I meant by that. If your band sounds great without a P.A. then it should sound just as good or better with it… but it usually doesn’t because the sound guy is constantly trying to change your sound (unintentionally) because you’re “too loud” or too this or too that. I guess the key is getting your band to sound and feel good at low volumes!??

    Great post Mike… I’m sending this and that to my teams.

    I’d love to hear your thoughts on this site. I like it, but I could be way off. Is it realistic??? Playing without a house mix (kind of)?


    Karl, “the sound guy as part of the band”. That’s huge!!! We’re working on it. I’ve got a few guys that are learning. Most of them are musicians that I’ve tricked into running sound… 😉

    It’s hard to find guys (or girls) that are technical and understand music. We’re getting there. We had one guy that ran sound for 3 years. He is really good at mixing an electric drum kit and guitars through direct boxes. Now we’ve got a handful of guys (including that one, praise God) that are learning to mix a live kit and amp rigs. I’m excited…

    Also a good post on drum shields is here…


  15. Pingback: F.O.H. and the Band Leader « Eric’s Blog

  16. Wow. You made yourself look like more of a jerk than Stryper. My band’s record was produced my Michael Sweet, the singer (who is a dude by the way, I think haha), and I have had the pleasure of hanging out with Oz in the studio recording with Stryper, and the guy is nothing short of a gentleman, strong Christian, and a great player to boot. I get your point, but you should check yourself before you start slamming other dudes after seeing them one time and trying to make them look like a fool (and make you look better). Pride is a sin too bro. These guys may have looked silly to you, but they were and are a valid ministry for the Lord. So you gotta watch what you say there. And remember this guy is a nationally recognized, platinum selling musician, with 25 years of playing in successful rock bands (not to mention that he is the type of guy who would give all the glory to God for any accomplishments he may have achieved). I think he knows his way around a guitar rig. He is a working musician with more hours playing in front of many thousands of people than most of the people here, and how many guitar magazines have you been in? Sorry if I sound harsh, but I have hung out with the dude, and found your comments somewhat offensive. In the future, just try to think about how you are going to sound when you are talkin about people, famous or not, and what that says about your testimony. Good luck and God bless.

  17. Hey, Aaron. 🙂 Welcome to the blog, and my sincere apologies that your first visit was not a pleasant one. You make some very good points, and I will definitely take them to heart.

    I try to keep a sense of humour going in this blog, both about myself, and about other things that I find amusing. But you will never find a judgement or comment on anyone’s character, spirituality, or personage, in any of my articles. The only judgements you will find will be those of artistic expression. In this particular article, I pointed out two of Stryper’s album covers that I found amusing. And I would seriously hope that the members of Stryper would have enough of a sense of humour about themselves to laugh at some of their album covers as well.

    My comment on their character was this: “And in fairness, Stryper did do a lot for the Christian music of their generation, and a lot for the Lord.” My comment on their album covers was that I thought they were cheesey; and to be completely fair, a couple of the guys in the second album cover even look like they might not be taking it ultra-seriously. Which I think is way cool. My comment on their character, was that God used them to do a lot.

    So, when I write posts like this, I do my best to never make fun of anything that has to do with anyone personally. In fact, I go out of my way, like in this post, to make sure I uplift them personally. But to ask a band to have a bit of a sense of humour about some of their own album covers, when it looks to me like some of them already were having a sense of humour about it when the photographs were taken? I don’t see a problem with that.

    And to answer your question, I have been on exactly zero magazine covers, have sold zero albums, have worked with zero famous producers, and one time I think I saw Joan Jett in a music store, but she didn’t seem to care who I was. 😉 Which is the exact angle I take on this blog. I’m able to objectively say I don’t like a certain song, or album cover, or style, and then in the same breath say that now that particular artist can go ahead and keep playing that song, style, or album, to their tens of thousands of people, and I’ll go crying home again and write another blog for 23 people to read. lol That’s the angle I take, and it’s much more of a self-deprecating one. I apologize if I did not make that abundantly clear in this particular post. I try to be pretty real with myself on things like this; that ya, I think those are some seriously cheesy album covers, but at the same time, will I ever sell as many albums as Stryper? Absolutely not. So more power to them. But can we also be real and say that Stryper, no matter how good a band they are, has put out a couple cheesey photographs? I’d think even the members would admit that, and hopefully have a few chuckles while doing so.

    As for bringing them down in order to bring myself up, you may have over-estimated me. 😉 I’m a little guy who helps lead worship for a few people (sometimes, like, 4 people…hehe), and who runs a little blog that very few people know exists. So, I think Stryper would probably have to produce about 16,821 more cheesey album covers for me to poke fun at, before it started to bring me up in the eyes of the musical world even a tiny bit. lol

    So I sincerely apologize if my poking fun at a couple Stryper album covers offended you on your friends’ behalves. That was not my intention whatsoever. Hopefully my explanation and perhaps a re-read of the article in that light will produce more of the effect I was going for when writing the article. However, I do not have it all figured out. I’m a self-centered, egotistical, sinful guy. So I could be wrong about everything. I’ll definitely pray about it, and look for what God wants to show me in my life through this.

    Anyway, Aaron, it was very nice to meet you, and I appreciate your caring enough to take the time to write to me in this way. Hopefully we can talk soon, and I’d love to hear your album as well; provided it’s not on the radio somewhere, and I’ve already heard it. (Which, if Oz Fox produced it, it may very well be! 🙂 ) Cheers!

    In Christ,

  18. Wow. Thanks dude. I appreciate your response and I do apologize for my harshness. Thanks for being a bigger guy and not blasting me back. I certainly will read the blog again in a different light after reading your response. Sorry for being too defensive. And trust me, when we were in the studio with Michael (Stryper’s singer) we did a lot of poking fun at his 80’s image too! 🙂 Thanks for being understanding, and thanks for being so cool. If you would like to email me your address, I will pop a cd in the mail if you want. Cool bro. You’ve got true class and I appreciate the loving way you responded to my fustration. Sorry again to judge you and offend you. Seriously dude, hit me with your address, I would love to send you a copy.

  19. As both a worship band leader and as someone who periodically does guitar work for other independent Christian artists, I can commiserate with many of the stories told. I’ve got my share of stories (including one in which the FOH sound guy at some other church was gruffly telling me I needed to ‘turn down’ my guitar to which I gently replied, “Dude, I agree that it’s too loud. But it’s blaring from your stage monitors; you’ve got control over it — I don’t…” He was adamant that it wasn’t his monitor mix, until he walked on stage, listened to what was coming out my wedge, and then sheepishly said, “Whoa, I guess that is the monitor isn’t it?”

    While I often have to adapt to the circumstances of playing for other artists in someone else’s church, our home church has come a long way over the past 12 years. We now routinely build the monitor mix first, because if the band isn’t feeling the music, it’s going to be an anemic worship experience for everyone else. It does help that we can run 7 independent monitor mixes on stage. Our FOH guys begin working on the house after the stage monitor mix is right and everyone can hear and feel what they need to be effective.

    Something else we do is have our guitar players ‘blow their amps’ to either the left, right, or back of the stage, and usually with sound gobo in front of the speaker cabinet. This prevents the ‘hot spots’ from developing out with the congregation when an amp is turned facing them (see http://projectsolutionsconsulting.com/MEOAnderson.jpg — my Mesa-Boogie amp is blowing towards stage right in that photo; I was one of 3 guitar players that day, excluding the bass player). Everything our guitar players listen to comes through their respective monitor mixes (which are pretty cooking, but we find that it actually takes less volume for them to hear versus listening to their amp cabinets since most of them let their amps blow past their knees, whereas a monitor wedge is looking them in the face). It also helps that the stage in our new building was designed to ‘suck up’ sound.

    We’ve also moved away from letting each sound tech use their own judgement about the FOH levels, which has made a big difference. One of our sound guys used to routinely try to keep things “not so loud” (those would be the Sundays on which some of our people as they left the service would swing by the sound booth and say, ‘That was good, but it needs to be turned up some more!’). These days, they always have an SPL meeting sitting out and active. We’re typically mixing around 93 to 95 dB with an occasional peak around 98 (the virtual compressors in our Shure 4800 DSP start doing some mild compresssion around 96; the limiters don’t kick in until around 102dB). It’s made a big difference in the energy of the worship experience.

    Perhaps the best thing about these changes is that we’ve made them together. We’re constantly (the ‘we’ includes all of folks with Worship Arts, along with the senior pastor) evaluating what we do, with our primary goal being a desire to see people’s hearts engaged in worship. If I could encourage you to take away one item from the things I’ve shared, it would be to routinely sit down with all the key people from your worship arts group, discuss the present challenges, and identify the different ways you might address those items.


  20. Aaron–absolutely no worries, brother. My writing skills probably aren’t where they should be, and so I totally get that sometimes what I mean to be in fun, can come off as bitter and mean-spirited. I really, really appreciate your taking the time to read my response…that’s way more than most people do!

    I’ll e-mail you right now, and I’d love to hear a copy of your guys’ cd! 🙂

    Oh, and just for the record, I’ve got mp3’s of both ‘To Hell with the Devil’ live, and ‘Soldiers Under Command.’ I’m not a huge ’80’s metal fan, but there’s just something about those songs. Maybe it’s the passion behind them. They’re my guilty pleasure listening. 🙂

    Mike–wow, great points! I love the db rating idea. Taking out some personal judgement and kind of taking the opinions out of things is a great idea.

    And we also blow our amps directly perpendicular to the stage. Seems to work the best. I also use half power switches and ppimv mods on most of my amps, too.

    Oh, and I totally hear you on the monitors. haha So many times the sound guys have asked me why in the world I need to have my amp that loud. And I’ll be like, ‘I’d absolutely love to turn my amp down! Just when I ask you to turn the acoustic down in my monitor, can you turn it down more than from 150db to 148db?’ haha I’m so with ya, brother!

    🙂 Cheers, and great comment!

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.